Kingdom Prophetic Society

Kingdom Prophetic Society

Clearing up the faith of the founding fathers:

Here is a wonderful discussion of Al Mohler with Gregg Frazer pertaining to the faith of the founding fathers, the errors of the left and right alike:

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Comment by Terry V. Estes on October 12, 2012 at 7:49am

I have read your comments several times and thought to contribute a thought or 2 of my own, though these are only thoughts and are subject to scrutiny and change, hopefully, as iron sharpens iron.

I am enlivened by many of the "thoughts" I have seen in several of the previous comments and challenged by the question of "how should I think " when there is such seeming disparity in the various viewpoints. As I was studying these thoughts I was reminded to look again at Paul's admonition to "think like this" or "let this mind be in you" from Phil.2. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others. He then instructs us to have the same mind, or thought process, as Jesus, who "thought it not robbery to be equal with God". The mystery of the gospel of Christ is that we have been made equal to God, through the death, burial, and ressurrection of Christ, and therein we have the opportunity and the ability to be true servants to one another. The goal, or objective, is to become a servant but the first step is to recognize who we are. Jesus, the man, was able to "own nothing", not even a place to lay his head, because he "saw" that he had everything he needed already supplied in the ownership of all things supplied in the relationship to his Father.

These thoughts you all are discussing are thoughts that men of all ages have discussed and should be discussing. We should be encouraging each other to think of others, and also, we should be encouraging each other to think of God as Father. When Jesus spoke of God as his Father it infuriated the Jews because it signified his equality with God. Interesting thought!

Comment by David Saunders on September 25, 2012 at 9:42am

sigh.......reread my post.  I was unintintionaly disingenious.  I used the phrase "redistribute funds" related to what a tax code must do.  This is true if standing alone but in appropriate context the discussion is redistribution of wealth. This is another matter.

I heard a guy say this:  Michael Jordan is rich.  The guy who signs Michael Jordan's paycheck is wealthy.

This is a huge topic that has been addressed better than I ever could hope to in manifesto's and doctorial disortations.

At the end of the day the issue must be viewed from the spiritual perspective of Kingdom principles such as justice, righteousness, providing opportunity, and material essentials for all social/economic classes.  As Americans who are engaged in our fine nations political process I feel looking to the ideals established in our constitution should be sufficient: "in order to form a more perfect union."  Americans were community minded and interdependant from the colonies forward.

That being said I also feel the ecomomic principle of the Year of Jubilee may be applied as we consider these things.  Debt was forgiven, employment contracts possibly unfair or undesired by the powerless were annulled, the boundries of property were returned to an original place, etc.

In other words the ecomomy was reset every 50 years to keep run amock, unregulated market forces from destroying Hebrew society by the order of the Lord God Almighty that social justice may be maintained.

In the time of the New Covenant these things have a more direct spiritual application however the principle may be used as a guide for decision making as regards policy.

Just my two cents.

Comment by David Saunders on September 23, 2012 at 5:14pm

hmmmmmmm...........way to much to spin about on a discussion forum-maybe over coffee.

I am pretty sure Matthew 25 does show that our Lord identifies with the less fortunate and that the Christians response to those less fortunate is a major character issue.

I find absolutely nothing compassionate in George Bush's conservatism which is basicaly Milton Friedman's economic theory sugar coated. 

I'm not sure what make Obama especialy narcissistic.

A tax code, flat, progressive, regressive, or whatever must, because it is a tax code, redistribute funds.

I think Mitt Romney has spoken well enough for Mitt Romney and the only concern he has about it is that the rates on his peasant insurance will go up if we get universal healthcare or he will have to pay the serfs more if they get educated.  (Believe it or not "peasant insurance" is a real term in the insurance business)

Regardless, the point you make is well taken.  Our government and all governments of the world have the golden rule as their guide.  The one with the gold makes the rules.  I suppose it could be asserted that a democratic republic with a capitalistic economy is the best humanity has come up with so far and, short of a benevolant dictatorship with Jesus as King of the Domain, is the best we will ever do.

The difficulty with this system functioning well for an extended period of time is that it depends on an engaged, educated electorate to produce good fruit such as opportunity for those not born to it and regulation of the tendancy for money to follow money.  The ones with the gold then deploy Rupert Murdoch, the Koch brothers, the NFL, and Kim Kardashian-the utopian dream then dies quitely while nobody is paying attention :)

I think there is much value in the idea that the prosperity gospel has brought the Church into agreement with the spirit of the age and empowered it when opposing it would have been wiser.

I also like Alan's assertion that one sees what they value.  The Buddhist write extensively about attaining to an unconditioned mind so that things may be seen as they are as opposed to being seen through the prism of preconcieved prejuidices and judged on their merits instead of cliches and stereotypes.

It is kind of as simple as love the Lord our God & our neighbor ain't it?


Comment by Philip Wiliams on September 22, 2012 at 10:49am

Yes, though I wish that Reich had included George Bush's 'compassionate conservatism' along with the Roosevelts and Kennedy.

Regardless of what they represent, I think that both candidates probably regard themselves as champions of the poor. For example, Romney is probably thinking of all the Mexicans he hired to cut his lawn. They were poor. He is probably thinking: "The more I have, the more of them I can help." That is the trickle down theory. It is true. He can buy more houses and hire more of them and if their wages were lower, he could hire even more of them, say to build some rock fences, etc. The fallacy of all that is that while wealth indeed trickles down, it streams, even gushes up. That is to say, almost the entire wealth of the poor is almost immediately given to the employ and profits of others. Obama wants to use his power to redistribute. Of course, he and Bill Clinton also hold to the same business and capitalist philosophy as his opponent, and not just because the White House is so heavily staffed with Goldman Sachs partners. As Jesus said, the kings of the Gentiles love to give benefits, that is, patronage. But when patronage is concentrated in kings, whether in government or industry, it will go to those (especially themselves) who the kings favor.

These see mainly themselves (especially the case of narcissistic Obama) and those with whom they associate. (With Romney, it is other investment bankers and Mormons needing help, many of them irresponsible). The problem we have with those in power in the present world is that they really don't see the poor. But I think this is the Charismatic prosperity gospel getting secularized. :)

But Alan Smith once explained that to me regarding Haiti (That was before the earthquake.): you see what you value. We must value especially the poor in Christ. But we aren't going to see very well until we come out of the world (with its politics) and began associating with the brothers and sisters of Jesus. There is the Ark of Safety. Elisabeth Warren missed it a bit with Matthew 25. In reading the sheep and goats, we have to remember that when asked who are his brothers and sisters, Jesus replied: "They are the ones who do the will of my Father." But the truth is, the parable makes it clear that, at his coming, Jesus has been suffering poverty and deprivation! 

Think about this. 

Comment by David Saunders on September 22, 2012 at 7:52am

Miss ya, mean it.

Here is something very cool spot on concerning "love of money is the root of all evil."

Comment by David Saunders on September 20, 2012 at 5:17pm

Seed ploughing?..............errrrrr, nope......meant to write "ploughing and seed sowing."  Ploughing seems like a lot of work however-dunno :)  Seems like a job for the Holy Spirit, really, but maybe we could be ploughs,,,,,,,hmmmmm.  There is all that fallow ground.  Then again, maybe I would be better as fertilizer-noooooo, then I would have to be either dead, which would be OK as a metaphor I guess, or possibly the manure used as fertilizer............but then I might be agreeing with my 'enemies' just a little to much.  Oh, thinking is just to much work.  That or I am overthinking it.  Or stretching the analogy a bit.  I am going back to bed.

Comment by David Saunders on September 20, 2012 at 8:50am

Morning, Brother Philip :)

One hand clapping?  Thank you, probably the best compliment I have recieved without a doubt.  Unity of spirit and the reality of our Lord's Kingdom....ditto.

How do we get folks to see the spiritual dimensions of the gospel?

Walk it and talk it consistantly with love expressed in wisdom. Don't back up on the details but be ready to give an answer for the joy.  Make sure everything that is asserted makes sense in the context of justice & righteousness by the testimony of both scripture and logic.  The righteousness of God is made known through the gospel.  If it doesn't do that it ain't the gospel.  Be lead of the Spirit and chose teachable moments with precision knowing that a student will find his teacher in the correct season.  Be powerful in prayer as an elder in the body should be.  The gift makes way for the gifted.  Don't be attached to anything, anyone, or any organization other than the Jesus the King/Elder Brother and the Kingdom of God.  Get used to doing things simply because it is the right thing to do without any expectation of seeing positive results-we are seed ploughing and seed sowing.  Get plenty of rest.  Abide.  Let our expectation be as simple as knowing it will be and let it be.  Laugh much, grin constantly.  Treat great matters as triffling ones and approach triffling matters with great concern.  Be useless often.  Have a doctrine of spontaneity.  Make decisions in the span of seven breaths.  

Here is a link to something cool.  It relates to our conversation about nationalism.  It is part of an opening sequence in a television show.  It does contain some foul language.

Comment by Philip Wiliams on September 19, 2012 at 12:58pm

All that I can manage here, due to my web-inexpertise, is the sound of one-hand clapping.

I need to get you a copy of my book that covers far more than the title indicates. Chapter 38 covers the four common views of the Kingdom, the good historical reasons that each arose as well as the problems that each created. There I use different terms for these views than the common ones in order to get at the problems with each. The preterist view, I describe as the view of the established (institutionalized) church. Historical premillennialism, I describe as restorationism. Post-millennialism, I describe as the evangelical view (win the world for Christ). Dispensationalism, I call the escapist view. It is hard to win the world for Christ when it is destined for the antiChrist. :)  Dispensationalism is the newest view. It made a lot of sense to our grandparents who were seeing that America was not in fact becoming the Christian nation that their own grandparents had hoped, but it leaves their children without hope. (Fathers' hearts turned from their children.) 

Among the most serious Christians of our generation, especially in the Bible belt, the big problem is indeed Dispensationalism, but there are many fine Christians who don't understand the problems, biblical and practical, created by that view. It gives no purpose for believers: just "get people saved" and then wait for the rapture. It removes much if not all the Bible from the Lord speaking to us (vis a vis those of another Dispensation). Indeed, the greatest problem with Dispensationalism is that it takes away the Scriptures and leaves folks with John Nelson Darby's theology. But they don't recognized that their light is Darby and not Christ. We have to look past their understanding to their heart. They are very discouraged with the way things are going. What they need is some good news. Well, the Apostles had it and we need to return to that.

Your last paragraph indeed is the Gospel of the Kingdom. What so many have been preaching is the hell insurance for the bad news. It is also a supposed individual salvation, but the Scriptures know nothing about individual salvation. We are saved out of darkness (Hell), but we must become part of the Kingdom of God, the body of Christ, which is now enduring the same thing that Christ endured in his days on earth. That is to say, that according to the Bible, salvation is corporate. Earlier Americans knew this and they were looking at the Kingdom of God appearing here. The problem is that God's people must be a separate, that is, holy people. It is a lie that early Americans believed in individualism. In fact, they believed in community. The individualist was the outlaw. The first individualist lived in the village of Concord, MA, and his mother brought cookies to his camp site at Walden Pond.

Here on earth, the size of things according to the flesh, as Jesus said (John 6:63), means nothing, one way or another. His flock will be initially small according to the flesh, but more importantly, their impact will be great. Many churches are small because their leaders are small and don't want to be overshadowed. My father would say, "These men know how to build small churches." But the Lord told the leaders of Zion (Hag 1:8) to go to the mountain and get timber to build his house that will be a house of prayer for all peoples. The royal blood gives the sons of God a vision of the Kingdom rather than of their own houses and doings.

So, how do get folks to see the spiritual dimensions of the gospel? Requires, as your poem says, death to the things of this world. It wasn't until after the death of Jesus that the Apostles themselves understood. We are not of this world – yet! For now, our citizenship is in Heaven, and we are ambassadors, preparing a party for the arrival of the king.

Comment by David Saunders on September 19, 2012 at 8:23am

Well said & AMEN!

Can I get a wtness!?

I will hesitate to equate big with bad and I don't believe that is your assertion.  However, in most cases if there is a big crowd there is more than a little compromise and teaching the thing that sizzles. 

Besides the fact that dispensationalism feeds the ego & flatters the self-righteous by creating others who are not 'us,' keeps folks focused on flying away instead of true Kingdom building and has the fascinating finale of Jesus initiating genocide upon the planet I am sure it is so popular because it simply sells and the salesmen rule.  The imagery is just fantastic and ya' know that locust looking thing must be an Apache helicopter........sigh.

I am pretty sure that the societal control provided by the ChurchState teaching forever torture sponsored by the Lord God if the illiterate peasants dared live out of the graces of their edicts helped put food on many a table as well.

Nationalism in church doctrine/philosophy is a huge idol.  It is definately more important to most than truth & objectivity which prevents sound decision making and appropriate introspection.

I guess the current idea which exemplifies all this best is the Mitt Romney 47% of America are entitlement harlots and slackers idea.  Underlying all of this is the premise that if someone does not contribute to the nations GDP to the degree that they must pay income tax then they must be worthless people.  Other than the actual fact that these entitlement harlots are basically retired people, grandparents, disabled, students who either have or will contribute more in $ why do we have to quantify the value of an individual in economic terms.  The fact that most of the entitlement harlots live in southern red states and vote republican is a real laugh riot.

I have seen this.  Working as a hospice nurse I have sit in a room with a guy watching Fox News & cussing government healthcare.  I asked him if he wanted me to call a truck and have everything the government was providing for him hauled away.  He asked me what would that be.  I indicated almost everything in the room except his TV.  Then he mumbled "keep the governments hands off of my medicare."  Really?  Isn't Medicare the government which is actually US?

I guess I say that to agree with the simplicity that the love of money is running stuff but in very subtle ways as well as huge obvious ones.

Proof that these things are problems?  Suggest to the average Christian that someone who dissagrees with their religion isn't going to hell, JesusGenocide eshtatology may be flawed, or that America may not be the best at something and see how many of the seven deadly sins manifest within 3 minutes.

I am very optimistic though.  As you are I am firmly convinced that Zion, the Israel of God santified and set apart with the mark of God on their foreheads, will rise and all peoples will be blessed through her.  The knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as water the ocean.  Justice & righteousness will prevail.  I actually believe this conversation is beginning and the construction of its infrastructure is underway.  The bride is picking out her gown.


Comment by Philip Wiliams on September 18, 2012 at 10:47pm

I agree that there are a lot of idols (whatever is more important to us than God is an idol) in the church. Our sects and old wineskins are more cherished than the Lord and our common faith. Nationalism is another big idol, especially with Americans. And to say that money is the chief thing running both the world and the church does sound simplistic. But I don't think that Jesus mentioned anything other than money as contrasting with love of God. We are also told that the love of money is the root of all evil. (that is a better translation than "all kinds of evil")

It is also true that not every church or ministry is run as a business, though the more worldly successful churches and ministries are run that way. They certainly dominate televangelism. That experiment of management guru Peter Drucker with Bob Buford show that business ways do work as demonstrated by what they did with Rick Warren and Bill Hybels.

A good way of seeing the various corporate sins is to look at the various ancient nations that inflicted Israel. Egypt for example was dominated by religion. Assyria looked to their militaristic power. Persia was known for entertainment and show. But Babylon was the ancient nation known for business and commerce. It is the spirit of Babylon that represents the ultimate world in the book of Revelation. All these things (for example, religion and power) continue to cause problems, but the one that dominates the world today is business (or Babylon). We have a world ruled by business. Though business has always been a factor in the world, never has it dominated the world as it does today.

It is true that most pew members don't see their churches as business because many of the small and medium churches and ministries aren't in fact businesses. Paying the bills doesn't mean that a church is being run as a business. It is the spirit or motivation of those running a church or ministry that determine that. But our world is increasingly dominated by Wall Street type of banks and businesses and to have a television or large church probably means that one has to be a good religious entrepreneur. 

Zion, the church that is the City of Truth is a small hill as compared to the great mountains of business, entertainment, etc. But in the last days, the Lord has promised to raise up Zion to be the highest and most renown of the mountains. 


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